This podcast was produced by OAR FM Dunedin with support from New Zealand On Air.
It's time for Talking Otago with ORC.

Host: Yeah, this time every month we catch up with the Otago Regional Council - usually - 
but today we're actually catching up with Jonathan Rowe, Programme manager of South Dunedin Future, a
joint program between the DCC and the ORC, just to bring us up to date with things there with the project. 

Kia ora, good to have you with us, Jonathan, thanks for coming in.

Jonathan: Mōrena Jeff, thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Host: Jonathan, perhaps we could start with an overview of what exactly South Dunedin Future is as a project.

Jonathan: Sure. As you've said, it's a joint initiative between the DCC and ORC, really looking
at what's the long-term future of the suburb, of the area, given all the challenges that
we're going to face with climate change, so rising sea level, groundwater,
rainfall, all of that stuff that we've seen playing out north with the Auckland anniversary
floods and Tairāwhiti with cyclone Gabrielle, and actually just in the last couple of days,
right, again up there. So as our climate changes and our environment changes, what does
that mean for South Dunedin, and the city and the community out there and how do
we make a plan for that and kind of get ahead of it?

Host: So speaking of the plan, there have been some milestones along the way recently in April,
quite an important one.

Jonathan: Yeah, launched on the first of April, but not to be confused with April Fool's Day.
So basically for the last year or two, we've been in kind of a preparation phase
so figuring out how do we tackle these really gnarly challenges that we're going to have,
they're really long-term, super complex, so figuring out a way that we could do that was not easy.

So we think we've done that and basically we've got an approach that we're going to roll
out over the next three or four years that's basically around making a plan.
So we launched that on the first of April down at the Street Festival, and now we've got
three or four years in front of us of working with a whole lot of really technical
smart folk, engineers, planners, scientists to tell us what's going on with the environment
out in South D and what that's going to look like over the next series of decades
all the way through to the end of the century and beyond, also having a really good talk
to the community about what they want, what they value, what they want to protect, what
might they want in the future that's not there now in South D, so kind of how do we make
this place better, not just stop bad things from happening?

And then the kind of really exciting pieces, what are the options look like for tackling
all of that? So that's going to involve that kind of full spectrum of fight and flight, but it's also
going to involve a crowdsourcing element. So we know that the engineers and the scientists are
going to have some ideas, the planners as well, but we also know that the community
that's been there for a long time, there's a lot of local knowledge out there, so there's
going to be a bit crowdsourcing component of that, which is going to be really cool,
going out and asking people for their ideas. 

Host: Well you've already done a degree of that, right, this consultation process with the
South Dunedin community goes a little way back?

Jonathan: We have, and it's a key pillar, right? 
I think after the 2015 floods, it's no secret that there was a sort of breakdown in the
relationship between the Council and the community out there around some of that.
So there's been a lot of hard yards gone into rebuilding relationships, re-establishing trust
and kind of getting in a space where we can, we've got a platform for having some really
good but robust but some really tricky conversations moving forward.

So you know, no amount of conversation on this is too much I don't think, and we're looking
to be really open and transparent and really bring people along, because ultimately whatever
we end up with has to have that community endorsement.

Host: You mentioned the day out at the South Dunedin Street Festival, it's always a wonderful
day. It's a real reminder of what an amazing community and very diverse community is, right?

Jonathan: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's a kind of bit of a microcosm and a bit of a snapshot of the
place all in one morning.

And it was, we kind of got all seasons in the morning, you know, some fabulous sort of cultural
events, community dancing. My kids were there, had a buzz around the town in the old fire engine.
It was cool and just a really good opportunity to talk to folks, explain what the programme is,
what we're doing. 

We also had a little engagement piece there where we had a big poster or board of South D
with a number of sites that we'd kind of put up there, some prominent ones, the Mayfair,
Marlow Park, the beach, et cetera, and we asked people to throw some sticky notes up on
there around what they value, what do they like, what's important to them and what would
they want to see in the future. So that's the type of thing we want to keep doing over and
over the next couple years to really start to get a good sense of what people want,
what's important to people and that's going to factor into things.

Host: Already more than 100 meetings with locals in one way or another...

Jonathan: Yeah, yeah, people are going to be getting sick of us.
No, my colleague Ian Telfer has really been at the forefront of that and Ian is a very
familiar face across South D. So with, we've been having lots of conversations with people
on the streets, a lot of the community groups.

We generally accept any invites to any meetings, most of them I think were wanted.
Yeah, and it's a really good chance to have a conversation about these issues because there's
a lot of concern out there, there's a lot of big headlines, there's some scary headlines
that get thrown around, the term 'managed retreat' comes up a lot.

So a lot of the conversations are reassuring people that yes, you know, there are
big challenges, the reality is some of the stuff's going to be really tricky, but we
think we've got a plan, we think we've got a way of working through this and we want
to start opening up a space for that conversation with people.

Host: Let's talk a little bit about the challenges because [South Dunedin] has its own particular characteristics
doesn't it? It was built on a former wetland and that in itself is an interesting history.
So in real terms, what are the kinds of physical challenges that you're expecting South Dunedin
to face as we go on?

Jonathan: Absolutely. So it was a former coastal wetland, not unlike Hooper's and Papanui Inlets.
So when it did rain and flood and previously the water would come and go, and rise and fall with
the tides. And we have modified the environment out there enormously over the last 150 odd years.
It's been built up, built out, reclaimed. And we see that along Portsmouth Drive and the dune system
in St Clair and St Kilda and the seawall.

And it's created a fantastic place, South Dunedin's great, but it's also really low-lying.
And we've in effect created this basin that has no natural outflow for the water.
So it is 100 percent dependent on the built environment, on the stormwater system.
And as we saw in 2015 and as we've seen up north in Auckland, you know, sometimes Mother
Nature can exceed what the current design limits are for this infrastructure.

So, you know, we do have some issues with high ground water levels out there.
A lot of people you talk to will say they dig a hole in their backyard and, you know,
you don't have to go down too far before you get some water in there, particularly close
to the coast. As I said, it's a bit of a basin, so you've got a lot of water kind of funneling in.
So if you get really heavy and intense rainfall events, it can kind of overload the system.
And we also, we know that with a warming climate, we've got this issue around sea level rise,
the kind of thermal expansion of the ocean and the melting of the ice caps.

So we know that this is going to get worse, so we have to figure out a way, how do we
kind of manage all these changes to the physical environment
and the hazards that they present, make more room for the water, because that's
the thing we're going to have is more water in the future. And figure out how do we do
that in a way that is sensible, kind of keeps the water
in places that we want, not in places that we don't like in our living rooms.
At the same time, kind of protect the spaces for people that are really important.
So that's the kind of balancing act that we're trying to do over the next three or four years.

Host: Now South Dunedin is not alone in this challenge, of course, is it. 
I mean, it's our local focus, but you've mentioned already some of the huge challenges
that have been faced up north. There'll be a lot of keen eyes on what's happening there.
And I guess around the world as well, in terms of lessons you can learn.

Jonathan: Absolutely. This is a global issue.
The thing about adaptation now, it's highly localised, so it's really different in every location.
So South D is unique and it's got a particular set of challenges and characteristics.
Though a lot of the issues, a lot of the challenges are relevant for other parts of
Dunedin as well, the Taieri [Plain], a lot of smaller coastal settlements, Aramoana, Waitati, etc.

We're starting in South D because it's kind of the biggest, highest profile, most acute challenge.
But a lot of what we're doing there, we would expect at some stage to be able to
kind of take those learnings and start working with the communities and other areas as well.
And this is happening around the country, right? The government's looking at this.
There's a whole lot of work going on in Wellington around legislation.
There's going to be a new Climate Change Adaptation Act later this year that will hopefully
provide a bit of guidance to people, to councils around. One of the big questions around this is
who pays for what, where does the cost of this fall across local government, central government,
insurers, banks and then kind of asset owners, the people, Mums and Dads that owns the homes.

Host: Yeah, all sorts of complications, not least of all the scientific ones.
One of your challenges along the way, Jonathan, I imagine is to present all of that information
in a way that the community can understand and get their head around.

Jonathan: Yes, and it's one of the kind of challenges we've been trying to grapple with very recently.
And we want to come out with a little product in the next couple of months that ... 
not so much of Science for Dummies, but a bit of a brochure that summarizes some of these key
issues in a way that is easy for people to understand. So to explain what other challenges
around seismic or earthquake related risks, and a lot of that again goes back to water,
so linking to liquefaction like we saw up in Christchurch after the earthquakes up there,
coastal erosion, sea level rise, the groundwater and rainfall. So we want to kind of explain that
in a way that gives people a really good foundation for then saying, okay, well, we understand the
challenges now, so what are the options on the table for addressing that? And it's kind of a
building blocks approach that we'll take over the next three or four years. 

Host: And that will be presented in what kind of format do you think?

Jonathan: Probably a brochure, I think, something ends up in people's letter boxes.
They can open it up, pin it on the fridge, and kind of pitch that a level where
it gives quite a lot of information, but in a way that most people can understand.

Host: And after that, back out into the community, more hui, more meetings?

Jonathan: Yeah, so there's kind of three big things. One of them is the release of this natural hazards
information. Then there's a whole lot more conversation and kōrero with the community about
what people want and what that looks like. 

And then the big exciting piece later in the year is, what are the options?
What does that first cut of the full spectrum look like? So that's going to be a mix of things.
There's a big infrastructure piece there - what could we build that might help? 
That might be pumps, pipes, walls, etc. And some of the pros and cons of that.
So what are the costs? What does it protect? Where and how and for how long?

There's also an element of what we call accommodation. So how do you kind of
accommodate some of these hazards? So could we build higher? Could we build on stilts? Could we
build swales, which are kind of natural, kind of grass-covered channels that might,
when it floods, the water moves down those, or you could invert the roads so that they kind of
form water channels. That type of thing. 

The third option is really around planning. Avoiding.
So how do we kind of change [the] planning [rules]? We're also thinking about our planning system to avoid
putting people in harm's way in the future. 

And the fourth option is the conversation around retreat. 
So how do we kind of move people out of harm's way? How do you do that in a really
planned and managed way that doesn't cause massive disruption or it doesn't... it gets ahead
of the game? So it's not a big red sticker process like they had in the Christchurch earthquakes
after the event. How do you do it in a way that's really managed, carefully thought
out and planned and calibrated with the community? So you can do it at a rate over decades. 

Host: Big piece of work. And one can understand that the South Dunedin community is
really heavily invested in it and you can also understand why you're talking directly to the
residents of South Dunedin. But is it an issue wider than that? Should the whole 
Dunedin community be part of this conversation?

Jonathan: Absolutely. It is, we do talk to a lot of people and they, if they're not from South D,
they say, hey, it's really interesting but it doesn't affect me because I live up on the hill.
And the reality is it's going to affect everyone in different ways.

In a purely financial sense, the councils, the city only have a certain amount
of money. So whatever needs to be spent in South D to help manage all these changing
effects is money that can't be spent elsewhere. If there are areas of South D that we do need to
move away from at some point, it might be that we need to intensify other areas of the city that
so you can see how it starts to have a kind of flow on effect and an impact for other people
elsewhere. 

Host: Well here we are, mid May 2023. What's next on the agenda for you, do you think in terms
of this piece of work?

Jonathan: So the next thing really is the natural hazards information. Then we've got
some more conversations with the community and as I say, we're kind of gunning for later in the year
that first long list of adaptation options. And then there's a whole lot of bureaucracy in the
background that I could talk about but it won't be very interesting!

Host: Well just very briefly though, there is this relationship between the Otago Regional Council
and the Dunedin City Council right and why is that? 

Jonathan: Basically because the issue is really complex and diverse. So there's a big
natural hazards component, and that work's led by ORC and that sort of has an
interplay with the planning elements, the infrastructure elements, the community focus.

So it requires the skills and expertise of both councils and it really requires an
approach that is horizontal, so it runs across both councils. So it involves three waters,
planning, the natural hazards team, communications, all of that. And my role in the programme
are a little bit of a reflection of that so I work across both councils, my job's funded by
both councils. And it's just because this thing's so complex that you kind of need to be doing a
little bit of everything. 

Host: Really good to be brought up to date with Jonathan. 
[That was] Jonathan Rowe, Programme Manager of South Dunedin Future, thanks so much
for taking some time to join us here for our Talking Otago spot. No doubt, we'll continue to have these conversations as we go
ahead. Thanks to you. 

This podcast was produced by OAR FM Dunedin with support from New Zealand On Air.